vs 8
This is one of the classic verses which doesn't get followed because it is not "culturally appropriate" to lift your hands up in prayer. Although I can't be 100% sure about when this practice stopped, I can be sure that such a thing would have been frowned upon and derised in the Latitudinarian period, when "religious enthusiasm" was stamped out of a large portion of the Western Church.
And I personally don't have a problem with us not doing it. Sure, the Bible says we should, but it's just an action. We don't kneel, and we don't prostrate ourselves, even though the Bible says to do those too. The operative terms in this verse are that we should pray together, without anger or disputing. This command is probably just to men (because there's a command just to women after it) - not because men only should pray, but more likely because men are the ones who need to pray without anger or disputing.
vs 9
In the same way, men shouldn't dress without modesty - it's just that, as men are more likely to have disputes with each other, women are more likely to want to dress more attractively (and men are more likely to stumble over that, and women may even be more likely to get into disputes about each other's dress habits).
vs 10
The point of verses 9 and 10 isn't even about clothes! Paul certainly isn't saying that Christian women should dress themselves with good deeds instead of clothes! The idea is that wearing attractive stuff isn't what makes Christian women attractive - it is their good and appropriate deeds that should make them attractive. You could almost read these verses "If the only thing attractive about you is your pearls and hair, then you don't really have much attractive about you as a Christian woman".
vs 11
I would personally say that any person who is learning should do so in this way. People who are loud, obnoxious, distracted or uncooperative are very difficult to teach. In fact, although we lump this verse in with the next one (which is peculiarly about women) we don't need to - it's just as bad for a man to be unteachable as it is for women to pray together in anger.
vs 12
Paul means what he says here. It's not just a personal matter for him. When he says "I do not permit" he is not making a suggestion to how Timothy should run his church. Paul is the leader of this church - he just deputised Timothy to do the work for him. This is a command to Timothy on how the church should be run.
Had this issue already come up in Ephesus? Or was Paul pre-empting it because he'd come up against it elsewhere? Hard to say from the letter.
vs 13
This and verse 14 are really the contentious verses of this passage. Verse 12 is just a command - like lifting holy hands in prayer, it could be ignored because it could simply be a cultural imperative. But the reason Paul gives for that command (that it is enshrined in God's creation) is not a cultural phenomenon. It's a biblical principle. Even if you don't believe in a literal 6-day creation, you can still believe that God put those early verses in Genesis there to teach us something about the created order. And Paul is telling us that this is what God is teaching there.
vs 14
The second argument Paul uses is that Eve was the one who was deceived, and Adam fell when he listened to her. Hence, women shouldn't teach because they can be easily deceived and then men will listen to them.
We hit a conundrum here. I can easily argue, and from the Bible, that men are just as easily deceived as women, and that men can teach falsehoods to each other, and probably teach them to women too. And although that argument might be correct, what Paul has written is still scripture.
This isn't an easy passage. Of all the arguments about women's role in church, the one about teaching (and leadership) is the most volatile, and its verses are also the least forgiving. We can't discount the cultural element here - but neither can we discount the biblical precepts given.
One argument I've heard is that Paul is using a Rabbinical form of argument. Why that means we can ignore it I'm not sure. But if you think you're out of the wilderness of difficult-to-understand, wait till the next verse...
vs 15
This verse simply can't mean what it says it means when you read it at face value (the 'simple' or 'straight' reading if you like). This verse demands interpretation, because you cannot be saved through childbearing any more than you can be saved through any other activity.
The footnotes of the NIV have "she" as a replacement for "women", and the greek version I have only has "she" because the whole greek word is sotheseisa, which means "she will be saved". This only confuses the verse more, because later on it still says "they". So the childbearing could refer to Eve, but the faith, love, holiness and propriety could refer to women of the church. Of course, she could be plural - it wouldn't have the translation footnote if it were easy ;)
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4 comments:
I'm impressed how you managed to steer as clear of controversy as possible with this verse. Leaves me little to be disgruntled and comment on!
But when you look at exactly what Paul was saying - and not overreact, as the modern feminist mindset has programmed us (women particularly) to do - then I agree with you that there are good principles there. (Props on your calm handling of this stuff, too!)
As you say, I don't know that verse 14 does imply that women are more easily deceived than men. But the idea that it is easier for women to get men to go against what they know to be right than the other way around seems to be pretty spot on. Something to do with breasts, I think. You can read 12-14 as a criticism of men - "I really don't think we should dur dur dur boobies." (For some reason I keep thinking of Trent in PVP.)
Okay, yes, I am oversimplifying and presenting the idea in provocative terms. Of course the verses are as much a warning to women as to men. Men are prone to wanting to give up their authority, women are prone to wanting to boss. Neither are attractive or God-glorifying, nor do they serve those around them. My point is that rather than a repression of women, it is an acknowledgement of their power and influence over men, particularly as it follows the injunction for women to dress modestly (yes, I agree that is also about unity among women). Men have a weakness for women, and women, bless our sly little hearts, sometimes do exploit that. This could easily be disastrous - especially for a young church. Better not to allow the situation to arise at all.
I could go on about Paul's respect for women, how he does not say anything about women being obliged to agree, or obey men who are not their husbands, and that there are many gifts apart from teaching that he doesn't seem to have a problem with women exercising within the church. But instead I'm just going to ask "bing?" about verse 15, because it really is confusing. Unless it somehow refers to Eve's childbearing which eventually, down the line, resulted in Jesus, which seems a very strange way to say it.
Yes, boobies. :D
I was actually surprised with how I stayed away from a quarrel here as well. You know how I love to argue, and you'd even baited me by saying "Publish more controversy"!
But hey, like you say, we can either like it or lump it. But we can't ignore it or make it go away.
Interesting idea about vs 15 - I didn't think about the salvation through eventual Christ-birth thing. I agree with you that it's certainly a round-about way of putting it, but then you never know what was being said in these churches do you?
I disagree with several statements and one remark in particular about overreacting and being considered a modern feminist because someone has the guts to speak their mind. No one should portrayed as if they were a stepford wive to be programmed. I think men are just as deceitful if not more than women.
Well thank you, Ms Anonymous, for your fabulously covert comments.
I won't bother defending Nina's comments, because she can do that herself, if she cares to.
But I will say your pedantry makes your argument all the more devestatingly compelling!
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